Phil Sobolev Interview - Cabrinha's Product Test Manager

In this interview, Pat speaks with Phil Sobolev, the Product Test Manager at Cabrinha, who oversees the testing of all the company's products. Phil explains that he works with the design team and the R&D team to come up with ideas and develop prototypes. He then tests the products, including 3D printed or board samples or kite prototypes, in real-world conditions. Phil also oversees the team of riders who help him test the products. He has been with Cabrinha for almost 10 years and has witnessed most of the company's changes, including different ownership. Finally, Phil chats about the tech tip videos he produces for Cabrinha, which explain how to service the company's products.

Pat: Thanks for joining us today, Phil.

Phil: How's it going? Thanks for having me.

Pat: It's going well thanks. So, what's your role at Cabrinha? I know you're the head of R & D there?

Phil: No, actually we have a product manager who technically is the head of R & D. That's Lars. I'm the Product Test Manager, so I oversee all the product testing as stuff comes out, whether it's prototyping or whatever. I do work with all the design guys and the R & D team to come up with ideas and help develop stuff, and once we have working prototypes, whether they're 3D printed or board samples or kite prototypes, then we get those onto the water and do some fine-tuning, especially when it comes to kites and kite bridling. So I get to try almost everything. The product range, as with everybody else's, has gotten so big now that it's too much for one person to do, so luckily we have a good crew of guys and girls who test stuff, whether it's on the wing side, foiling-specific, prone surfing, or even the kiting.

Pat: That's a really cool, unique job in the industry, and a really fun job.

Phil: Testing has its perks, for sure. There are many days in the water, but there is a trade-off to that. If you were doing this for fun, you probably wouldn't go when it's drizzling rain, really gusty, or offshore conditions. You don't always get to pick the best days when stuff needs to happen and we need feedback and a decision one way or the other; you've just gotta go get it done. Luckily, we have a great crew and a great team that we work with, so everybody's pretty fired up to get stuff moving and make the best products we can.

Pat: That's awesome. So how did you end up getting started in the kite industry?

Phil: The short version is I was working downstairs at the shop here for a few years, and then Pete convinced me to come upstairs and help him out with some customer service stuff. I did that for a little while, and over the years got more involved with helping give kites and boards a try. One thing led to another, and I started being more and more involved with the testing, and that turned into a full-time job as the range grew. I've been doing that for probably almost 10 years now.

Pat: So you've been through the whole development of Cabrinha then, as far as the last 10 years and going through those changes, the different ownership, and all that stuff.

Phil: Yeah, there are definitely a couple guys that have been here longer than me, but I've seen most of it and been here through most of it, and it's all been a good learning experience. I'm really stoked to see where it is now with Jon and those guys coming in and helping out. Those guys are all kiters, so that makes a huge difference. They all wing and surf as well, so they really understand what the mission is here and what we're trying to do. They're fully behind it and it's been a really positive experience, for sure.

Pat: That's great. I know you run a lot of the tech tip videos for Cabrinha. How do you come up with the idea for those? Is it stuff you notice while you're doing the product testing, or a question a consumer might think of, and then you just run with that?

Phil: I would say it's probably a combination of things. The bulk of it is probably getting feedback from retail, from customers on the beach, and from our internal sales staff. Obviously, these new products are coming out with things that may be a little bit different from what consumers are used to seeing, and then maybe it needs a little bit of extra explanation. There may be a different way to service a new product, whether it's a new Sprint system or what have you. We try to take feedback from all areas and see what we feel the biggest need is and try to explain that further as people might need. I'm knee-deep in it every day, so we kind of take it for granted that to tear down a bar completely and put it all back together may take 10 or 15 minutes, but a consumer might need to service something and could end up spending a couple hours on it. We're trying to make that whole process easier for people. When we design this stuff, we do try to design it with serviceability in mind and make things easier to work on because we all know that there's nothing worse than going to the beach and being about to launch when you realize something's wrong, whether it's a Sprint system issue or a kite line issue. We try to make it as seamless as it can be while still making it as high performance and safe as it can be as well.

Pat: That makes sense. Year to year, somebody will ask the designer what changed in the kite, and they'll say, "Oh, we changed the bridle this year," or "We've lightened up the fabric slightly." The benefit of lighter fabric is easy to understand, but I just discovered this year how big of a change bridles can actually make to kites. I'd never realized how you can have a great airframe shape for your kite, but if the bridle's not right, it's not going to fly right. When the designer says, "Oh, we tweaked the bridle this year", what does that actually mean or entail for the end user?

Phil: There are a bunch of things that can go right and wrong there, and you're absolutely right that you can have a pretty decent kite in the profile and the canopy shape, but 98 percent of the time what separates a good kite from a great kite is the bridling. That can really make or break the kite, and we do spend countless hours going over that and fine-tuning it. The crew that we see at the beach are used to seeing me out there tying knots, going out for two laps, coming in, taking one piece of bridle off, tying an overhand knot in it, going back out for a couple more minutes, and coming back in to try it again without it. You'd be amazed at the difference that can make. To most people, it might not be a night and day difference, but it'll be the difference between it feeling all right, or you coming back with the biggest smile on your face going, "That was freaking awesome!" That's what we're really striving for: to make the kite the best it can be for what it's designed or intended to do. We're lucky to have a guy like Pat Goodman, who's been doing this forever and is just the OG as far as kite design is concerned, make some really good kites, so we're stoked to have him back on board. It's been an absolute pleasure to work with him before, and now, by the time he sends stuff to us to try, it's already pretty close. Then I spend a lot of time with him online and, when the opportunity arises, in person, and we go through certain things and try things, and it's a lot of back and forth. There are a handful of other guys that we rely on as well to provide that feedback to make it the best it can be. Sometimes the difference of one centimeter in a certain line of the bridle can literally make the difference of how the kite feels when you turn it, if it gets more pivoty, or if it doesn't depower enough when you throw the bar out, and that kind of thing. It's really about trying to find the right balance to get the kite to be the way it is. Pat's really particular about things, and his OCD kicks in so it's got to be just right, and that's definitely a blessing to have somebody that's so detail-oriented like that. He really helps us work through all those things and what that means to the consumer at the end of the day. We're trying to get to the point where, when the customer goes and rides the kite, they have the best experience they possibly can on it, whether it's better upwind, or the depower is better, or the jumping is better, or it's more pivoty in the turn when you're on the wave so when you bottom turn you're not getting yanked off your board. It just depends what kite we're working on.

Pat: So it's literally just centimeters that are making the difference there, as far as that fine-tuning of that feel?

Phil: Yeah, and it's not just the length of the bridles; it's where the bridles are attached on the kite, as well. Moving the tow point of where that bridle is hanging off the kite by a centimeter or two can sometimes make or break the kite as well, so there is a lot of trial and error there. Pat's really good, so there's already a good general idea of where stuff needs to be, but a lot of times when we're developing new kites, you're starting from ground zero. There's an idea of what you wanted to achieve, and you go into it with certain parameters, but there's always that little bit of fine-tuning that needs to happen. It's those last details that take the longest to achieve.

Pat: Going into that new product development, this year at Cabrinha you guys have almost revamped the line fully, as far as new kites go, plus a whole new surfboard line. You have really breathed a whole new life into the program. The Nitro is a brand new kite, there's the first model of the Moto X--you could call it an evolution of the Moto, but really it's a brand new kite as well--and then the Drifter is almost a whole redesigned kite.

Phil: Yeah, it's been a busy year for sure, and for everybody on the team, not just myself. A lot of work went into the kites and the surfboard program, and even wings and foils. Like you just mentioned with the Moto versus the Moto X, do you even call it the "Moto" anymore? I'm sure you've probably tried by now, and it's a very different animal from the original Moto. It's faster, it's lighter, it looks better, it jumps better... Really, I would consider it a high-performance three-strut freeride kite now, that can actually do a little bit of everything.

Pat: Yeah, I think it took what that original Moto was going for and actually brought it to the finish line. I'm sure there's tons of changes that can be made to it in the future and I'm sure you guys are gonna continue to tweak it, but-

Phil: We're already working on that. But yeah, it's such a good kite. I was a little bit surprised when we were developing this kite because it was lighter and faster than anything else in our range at the time, and it took a little bit of getting used to. I was like, "Who's this kite really for?" But we've seen a couple people fresh out of lessons where this is their first kite, and you can move that kite to the "B" setting on the wingtips to stiffen up the bar pressure just a bit so they get a little more feedback from it, and they did fine. Yet we have our guys in Cape Town doing double loops on the 6 and 7 meters in 50 knots, so it actually can cover this huge range that originally I wasn't even sure was possible. It's amazing the kind of conditions that you can take this kite out in; it really does do a little bit of everything and it does it really well, so we're really stoked on that one, for sure.

Pat: I know everyone in the shop here who has hopped on those has loved the thing. One of our team riders, Marc, got out in the waves with it and he said down the line on the thing was fine; he was actually really happy with it. He was concerned about whether he shouldn't have gotten a 7 meter Drifter at that point, or if he should've just got a 7 Moto X.

Phil: Nice. It's a good problem to have.

Pat: Going to the Nitro, you guys have that new Apex material that made the kite frame a lot stiffer. Do you see that developing into other products in the line, or do you see that sticking with the Nitro for the time being and seeing how that material develops over the next couple years?

Phil: Oh. Well, that's pretty top secret. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about that.

Pat: Oh, no worries...

Phil: I'm just kidding. You know what? The Nitro has been a huge surprise, and I think Pat said it best, that it's one of those kites where experienced kiters get on it and remember that being able to jump ridiculously high is why they got into kiting, at least for most of us. I come from a snowboarding and a wakeboarding background, but I'm able to think about jumping over the boat now instead, and going well beyond that. The Nitro is really the high-performance boosting kite that was designed with King of the Air style riding in mind, and it's been pretty eye-opening to see how high you can go and how far you can go downwind drifting with that thing in the air. That Apex series material that we're using in the leading edge and the struts really opens up the performance of the kite and allows us to get the last 10-15 percent out of it, to let you go to the moon on that thing. There's always the intention of seeing where else we can incorporate this. Does it make sense to use it in other models or other products? So that's a nonstop development thing. We're always trying new things and new ideas, so yeah, there's definitely plenty of experimentation going on in development.

Pat: I've been loving it. The Nitro stayed in my car after I did all my testing with it. I'm keeping it hidden away. I think that one stayed with me for the rest of the year.

Phil: I was just riding one the other day just before that last swell arrived as we're developing new stuff, and it reminded me what a fun kite that is. I'm not really a big twintip guy anymore; I haven't done freestyle in forever, but it's so fun to jump on that kite and just go boost around and try some loops. It's just good fun. I was reminded how much of an incredibly high wind range this thing has. It's really designed to be ridden in those overpowered conditions. On a day where a 9 Moto X might be fine for when it's blowing 20 to 22, I really don't want to take out the 9 Nitro until it's at least 25. When it starts getting to 25, almost 30, that's when that kite really comes alive and starts feeling fun. I would say to anybody that's looking at that kite that it's designed to be ridden almost one size bigger. Because it can handle that sort of range and because it was designed for that King of the Air style riding, you're going to go out and ride that kite lit, and that's where it's the most fun, for sure.

Pat: I definitely would agree with you there, to size up with that kite and ride it overpowered. It's where it comes alive.

Phil: Right. And that's where you really appreciate the difference. Like you said, it really does come alive there and you definitely feel that performance difference. It's very comfortable being overpowered.

Pat: As far as the Drifter, I know that's kind of your personal baby. What's new with the Drifter this year? I know you said that it feels like a brand new kite, so what did they change?

Phil: Pat started almost from the ground up on that one. The profile is different, the arc shape's a little different, the bridling is totally different, and the leading edge and strut materials have been changed over as well to lighten up the kite itself. Between the bridling, the redesign of the kite itself, and the materials, the kite's now lighter and faster than it's been before, it's more responsive on the bar, and all those things have helped to make it drift down the line a little bit better and react to that pivot turn when you're going into a turn. That just redirects the kite quicker now. The depower is just as good and, if anything, the jumping has been improved a little bit, which we really appreciate for strapless airs. It got better for that, but didn't lose any of the surfing ability, and that's one of the things that we really liked about that. We watched Lorenzo doing double kiteloop strapless board-offs. It's a mouthful, but it's stuff that I didn't think was possible on a surfboard. It jumps plenty fine, and for guys like Keahi who pretty much just want to go get barreled now, it still does just fine for him in proper surf. And for us Average Joes that want to go out and play when there's fun surf around, it gets the job done like no other. It's really a fun kite to fly. So I would say the predominant change is that it's significantly lighter, faster through the window, and faster turning. It definitely feels like a sports car version of the existing Drifter, which was already a great kite.

Pat: That's awesome. I haven't been able to get my hands on one yet, but I know Aaron has one in his car I'm gonna be stealing at some point. I've heard nothing but good things about it, and Aaron's been raving about it. You guys finally got him to try another kite brand for the first time in a couple years, so it's good to see that. And the new bar this year- that's a pretty big change from the old Overdrive bar. It's really cool looking: it's got the auto unswivel and new release system, so a really good revamp there in the lineup, in my opinion. I haven't been able to use one yet, but it sounds like they're coming in pretty soon here and I can't wait to get my hands on one of those for testing. Were you in the R & D or the testing with that?

Phil: Yeah, absolutely. That was a big project, for sure. Control systems are, by nature, very technical in what they need to achieve. You're expecting it to hold your body weight while getting ripped off the water in ridiculous winds, but the safety's still got to be able to eject at a moment's notice. The bar's got to feel right in your hands, and it's got to have this adjustability, so there are a bunch of things that need to happen to make it, and this is what's connecting you to the power source, so it's got to feel right and intuitive. So yeah, we did do a bunch of testing with that, and it's come out really good. Everybody's really stoked on it, and it was a huge redesign. It's really cool to have this auto unswivel feature, which is a really nice bonus. The trade-off is that you need to make sure your center lines are now set up correctly right from the get-go, as with any auto unspin system, but by the second time we used the bar, we got used to doing this, because some of us would sometimes get lazy and not even run out our front lines.

Pat: I would do that all the time.

Phil: Right, and then you just unspin the thing at the bottom after you launch. So with this you've just got to make sure it's done right, but it's literally an extra 10 seconds out of your routine, and it's a really nice feature to have. Everything keeps nice and straight. The other bonus that I found is the free spinning feature of the safety line. Now the 1X flagging line that you're leashed off to doesn't get twisted. For people that only like to kiteloop in one direction or strapless guys that are only doing their transitions in one direction, over time that single flagging line can get spun up pretty bad, but now that doesn't happen anymore. So it solved a bunch of issues. The QR, as you know, is the single push seatbelt-style click now and works really well. The other cool thing is that the line links are all adjustable. They come stock at 22 meters, and basically what you're getting now is an 18 meter lineset with a 4 meter extension put on. That's the way the bar ships, but there are also 2 meter extensions in the box, so it gives people the option to run any combination of 18, 20, 22, or even 24 for people that want to go really long. It helps you dial in whether you want to have a shorter line setup for doing bigger yank loops or you just want a faster wave kite, or for people that are learning or riding in higher winds and just want something that's a little bit closer to them. One of our testers prefers riding 24 meter lines, so he puts the end extensions on and he just wants to go boost to the moon the whole time, so it gives people a ton of options. The new bar is really sick; I'm stoked for you guys to get on it and try it out. They're making them now, so you guys should be seeing them any day.

Pat: Everybody that was down in Cancun said it looked great, so we're super excited to get our hands on that. The Quick Change loops also. You have the different options as far as loop sizing, sliders... stuff like that is good to see.

Phil: Yeah, there are those three different stock sizes. I think it's going to ship with the small loop, which is what most people will probably need and want. There is a medium loop that's more freeride and part-time unhooked, and then there's a freestyle-dedicated loop with no security pin and a suicide-style leash connection. So there are three different loop sizes, and then there'll be a dedicated slider option as well, which is the metal bit right in the bottom of a really shortened loop for people that want to ride on either a rope or a webbing-style slider. We've ridden them all and they all work really well, so we're stoked on them.

Pat: Good, I'm really excited to get on that. What is your go-to setup? If you could grab anything out of the Cabrinha lineup and go hit the water right now, size, kite, board... what are you grabbing out of the back of your car for the conditions you want?

Phil: It really depends on the conditions, and being that the nature of my job is to go and ride what needs to get tested, I don't get to pick a lot. I go ride what needs to get ridden regardless of what the conditions are, so there have been plenty of days where it's been head-high surf and we're out there riding twintips and boosting around and feeling like, "What am I doing out here?" But with the older knees and the joints not liking freestyle as much these days, the go-to is definitely riding Drifters and a strapless board. The 9m is probably the favorite, but the 7m is great because it generally means it's windier, and everybody loves being on smaller kites when they can. But there's just something about the 9. It's just the right combination of plenty fast, but it still jumps really good, so for strapless airs I tend to prefer the timing of that with the 9 meter. The Method is a really good surfboard that I'm stoked on that works great for strapless and smaller wave conditions, and then I'll jump on a Flare or Phantom if the surf is a little bit more up. The surf stuff is definitely my favorite when the conditions allow, and when time allows, of course.

Pat: I think everybody's favorite is the surf stuff when the conditions are lined up for it. I don't think there's anybody in this sport that wouldn't take it if they get the opportunity for the surf. I'm definitely more freeriding and boosting myself, but if the conditions line up for a good wave day, I'm all in for it, no matter what.

Phil: Don't get me wrong- when there's no surf or when it's ankle high, I have no problem taking a Nitro and a twintip out and just go boosting around because it's all good fun. I'll do it as long as my body will let me, let's put it that way.

Pat: I know your pain there. So, living in Maui, I know you're already in a destination spot there, but what is your "free plane ticket, bags are packed" spot anywhere in the world?

Phil: That's a tough one, man. There are a lot of places I haven't been to yet that I'm very curious about, but out of the places we have been so far, I would say Tahiti or just French Polynesia in general has been an all-time favorite. It has a little bit of everything; obviously the surf is world class and the reef is just alive there. It reminds me of what old Hawaii probably was like before I got here, and it's just a beautiful spot with good wind and solid surf and everything. Of places I haven't been to, there's probably a list two pages long with too many to count. There are so many good spots out there that I haven't been to that we hear about from people all the time, and if there was all the time in the world, I would go to every single one of those places.

Pat: With kiting, and especially with winging now, there are so many spots that are opening up that I wouldn't have thought of going to before.

Phil: Yeah, I fully agree. There are so many different options out there that it's hard to choose just one or two, but out of all the places I've been so far, it's been French Polynesia. It's definitely been a favorite.

Pat: Awesome, good to hear. One last question for you; it's kind of a big, loaded question: where do you see the big improvements in kite design in the next three to five years? Do you think we're going to see any actual big change as far as kite design goes, or do you think it's going to be more in the material like we've been seeing in the last one to two years? I know it's hard to see that far out.

Phil: Yeah, it is, and I hesitate to say that it's not kite design because we've been surprised before, so there's definitely that possibility. But I will say that with materials, it definitely seems like there's a big push for that right now, and the focus is definitely on getting stuff that's either lighter or stiffer or, in some cases, softer. Stiff may be great for wings, but not always great for kites, or at least not in all the areas. So I think materials is probably the big push right now, and those things take a little while to develop and test and homologate, so it's not something that necessarily happens overnight. We've tried a lot of stuff that looks good on paper or in the lab data, but when we put it into an actual product it didn't quite translate like we thought it would. Then there were other things that we were surprised by that were way better than we thought it would be, so it can go both ways. We're always chasing lighter, stronger, faster, all that kind of stuff.

Pat: Going off of that, I'm curious on your take on it. I know everyone's going after that stiffer, lighter material, but doesn't it come to a point where the kites need to flex? I guess there is a certain rebound you're looking for to snap back to its original shape quicker, so is it just figuring out what the right level is?

Phil: Yeah, and there are so many different things that go into it, whether it's just the properties of the material itself, the stitch holding capability, and how it interacts with the canopy material, which is a totally different material. So yeah, there are many things that go into those, as well as considering how to assemble it. Does it need a different assembly method because it's a different material? Does a kite need to be redesigned? I will certainly say that you can't just slap new material on an existing design and expect it to work the same or better. The design really needs to complement what the material is made from, so it is a process starting from the ground up and a lot of time and effort gets spent on that, so we do spend a lot of time trying different things and trying to find what the optimum combination or the right fit is for that, or if it even fits in the range at all.

Pat: Awesome. Thanks so much for joining us, Phil. Do you have anything else you want to add?

Phil: No, man. Thanks for having me; it's been a pleasure. Hopefully I'll see you guys out here soon.

Pat: Hopefully soon, yeah.

If you want to check out any of Cabrinha's tech tips, check out their YouTube page.

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